Costly Grace, part three...
Great discussion on the last post!! I just want to bring out a few different thoughts and continue the discussion before I post the next chapter.
Luke, I really liked how you wrapped up the lay minister vs. professional minister discussion…
“So what does this teach us? I think it teaches us our helplessness before the living God. Whether I leave it all behind, or whether I remain content in the world there is a real danger of relying on something OTHER than God Almighty. And this is where the call of Jesus Christ incarnate, crucified, and risen leads: to a shattering of all self-reliance against the hammer of the law and a re-creation and re-birth in the vicarious work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.
If we look to the rich young ruler of the Scriptures we can see this fact. Jesus calls this man to leave his entire life behind to follow Him. Why? Because the man was attached to his life, attached to his job, attached to his family, attached to his accomplishments. Would leaving this all behind solve everything? No, because even then he might even be more firmly attached to his self, to his stubborn self will. Jesus Christ therefore wants to simply strip us down of all these false idols and attachments so that we stand before Him as nothing but helpless and broken beggars. It is then there as unrighteous sinners, as helpless and sick wretches that the grace and comfort that He offers will be so uplifting and full of true peace.”
These are very challenging thoughts. It is so important to realize that it is not just the act of leaving everything physically behind…we need to also be willing to leave our heart, passions, and self-will at the foot of the cross.
The other thread of discussion I would like to follow is Roxana’s:
“Bonhoeffer says we can not choose to be disciples. That being a disciple is something we are called to. I know we are called to make disciples of the whole earth. Yet Jesus called some men to be the kind of discipleship that were asked to give everything up (and I know he asks that of all of us) and others he just preached to wanting them to be born into the kingdom…Jesus’ earnest desire would be that we all live a costly life, but we all don’t get the message clearly because we haven’t stood and cut down the monastic weed that continues to infest our churches”
(mom, clarify if you meant something different…) But I think what you are saying is that all of us are called to be disciples, but not everyone will answer that call. I would like to take it a step further and say that Jesus has called ALL men to be the kind of disciples that will give up everything. I think it is more then Christ’s desire for us to live a costly life, but his demand…anything less is because our hearts are rooted in sin. I think the answer to the “weed” (I am thinking you are talking about false doctrine/teaching) is to powerfully, boldly preach God’s word to each other. As we immerse ourselves in the word of God, our lives should take shape according to the commands in that word. The answer to the areas of our life that we have not allowed costly grace to enter in is a humble heart of repentance before our amazing God who has saved us from having to live a life filled with anything less then being his disciple.
posted by thankful4adoption.blogspot.com @ 3:38 PM
8 comments
8 Comments:
"It is so important to realize that it is not just the act of leaving everything physically behind…we need to also be willing to leave our heart, passions, and self-will at the foot of the cross."
I would even go so far as to use Bonhoeffer's own powerful words: "There are only two ways possible of encountering Jesus: man must die or he must put Jesus to death."
To encounter Christ is not just to leave everything behind, physically, mentally, and spiritually, but to DIE. To truly encounter Jesus Christ is to die, to be crucified with Him. We no longer live, our old Adam and self is dead, and we are raised anew in Jesus Christ.
This is not isolated language, this is the continued language of the entire proclamation of Jesus Christ:
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20).
"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world" (Galatians 6:14).
"I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:31).
"To live is Christ and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21).
"You died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3).
"Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him" (Romans 6:3-8).
Dennae,
Yes we are all called to be disciples. What are disciples? In the Bible the word for disciple literally means “pupil” or “learner.” When applied to the early Christians, it came to mean someone who declared a personal allegiance to the teachings and person of Jesus. So Yes I am called to be a learner of Christ' teaching. What did he teach?
To love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls and to love others as ourselves. Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation"(Mark 16: 15).
So what types of disciples are there?
One
-the type that calls us to believe (the Gospel) that
1) Christ was crucified for our sins, Christ rose from the dead, Christ is exalted as King and savior, and Christ is coming again. 2) -the type that commands us to obey the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ, to understand that He is the only way to heaven (Rom 10:9) and (3) The type that wants us to teach and learn about how we need …to subject ourselves to the righteousness of God… Rom 10: 9 that if we confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved.
4) the type that calls us to confess our faith in Jesus – (Mt 10:32-33), repent from our sins and realize the forgiveness is possible (Mark 24:46-47, Luke 13:3)
5) The type that calls us to be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:37-38,Co2:11-13), to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) and the type that teaches us that we have the gift of eternal life.
6) the type that wants us to love others, to have compassion for them so they won’t spend eternity in hell, to love them as the Father loves us, to love the Father in such a way that we would give up everything to follow him.
Yes anything short of giving all our hearts and desires to Christ is sin
We are all to be this type of disciples (learners and teachers of the Gospel) When I think about the weeds I think about the confusion in church doctrine that keeps people from understanding the type of discipleship like Bonhoeffer describes “…discipleship can tolerate no conditions which might come between Jesus and our obedience to him.”
For instance, Eph 4:11-16 where it talks about different parts of the body can be very confusing to those who think there are different types of calling (disciples)
I agree the answer to cutting out “my” weeds is to immerse myself in the Word of God, to learn how to love as He loves so that… our works can glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16).
Luke, I like that quote: "There are only two ways possible of encountering Jesus: man must die or he must put Jesus to death."
I also think there is third way to encounter Jesus, One in which although Bonhoeffer doesn’t mention in this quote, surely experienced it …where we play no action… when Jesus calls us and encounters us throughout life through no action of our own.
There are countless of stories, where Jesus comes across people and encounters them, (the woman at the well, on the road to Damascus, to the women after returning from the tomb)… He encounters us during real times of hardships. The Holy Spirit encounters us gently, correcting us along the way in an attempt to help us live a life that understands costly graced. He encounters us and we are never the same because of it.
Bonhoeffer hints to this when he mentions… “We hear the words of One who is on his way to the cross, whose whole life is summed up in the Apostle’s Creed by the word “suffered” . No man can choose such a life for himself. No man can call himself to such a destiny, says Jesus, and his word stays unanswered... But where Jesus calls, he bridges the widest gulf…only the Christ can speak in this fashion… He alone has the last world... This call, this grace is irresistible… the third man thinks he must make the offer on his own initiative….but he cannot…
The encounter then is a gift of God. I think that these encounters bring us to a moment of decision like “… when Jesus calls the young man to enter into the situation were faith is possible…
P.S. I posted another comment in the last section to you regarding weeds
Dennis, I totally agree with you about the role of ministry. I don't particuaarly like the word "lay ministers". But I think you hit the problem on the head.
Looking forward to the next few chapters.
Roxana,
"I also think there is third way to encounter Jesus, One in which although Bonhoeffer doesn’t mention in this quote, surely experienced it …where we play no action… when Jesus calls us and encounters us throughout life through no action of our own."
I don't think we do have a part in the calling. I think God is continually calling us to a life of discipleship through obedience to Him. Bonhoeffer puts it this way: "The call to follow at once produces a new situation. To stay in the old situation makes discipleship impossible." We can only respond in obedience by His grace; just as Peter stepped out of the boat in obedience.
Jesus offered Levi a new life; not a slight adjustment to his old life. He didn't say: "go ahead and keep your job so you can provide for your family and follow my principles." If Levi had stayed at his job, Jesus could have been a major force in his life. He could have been helpful to him. He would not, though have been Lord of his life. For that to happen, Levi had to answer the call obediently and "come follow Me."
So, what does this mean to us? How do we know if God wants us to give up all we have and go off on some mission in obedience to Him? Would doing that be an act of obedience, or disobedience? I know there are times it would be much easier for me to go off on some mission field and leave all the pressures of the day behind. Would doing that be obedience for me, or disobedience? There are also times I think about what I would be giving up; I've worked so hard to buidl a business that is secure and prosperous. How tightly am I holding on, here?
I think we all have to be brutally honest with ourselves, and live a life of self-examination so we can know what it means to forsake all and follow Him. As Bonehoeffer says: "You can only learn what obedience is by obeying. It is no use asking questions; for it is only through obedience that you can come to learn the truth."
The call of God (Jesus)
I've always kind of wondered about this...
I was taught that some recieved a call, which meant full time ministry, more specifically pastor, missionary, teachers,...
and some did not. Some did and did not obey. I could write a whole book about my feelings on that, but that's not where I'm going with this.
Then for a while I thought of it differently. All are called, but the call looks different for all of us. Some it's full time, some it is sharing with those who God puts in your life.
But more recently I'm seeing it more as a call to "discipleship".
So what does that look like?
"The call to follow implies that there is only one way of believing on Jesus christ, and that is by leaving all and going with the incarnate Son of God."
As we make decisions to follow Christ we design our lives to reflect those decisions. It's more though...
I think the next "step" is making decisions which put you in a place physically and spiritually where you have to rely on God. Where we are walking in new places.
"The first step places the disciple in the situation where faith is possible. If he refusees to follow and stays behind, he does not learn how to believe. He who is called must go out of his situation in which he cannot believe, into the situation in which, first and foremost, faith is possible."
Bonhoeffer is clear that this is not some kind of formula to creating a life that will bring us a religious experience, it will give our faith a push towards a faith like these men Jesus talks about...
"Had Levi stayed at his post, Jesus would have been his present help in time of trouble, but not the Lord of his whole life."
Can we follow Jesus and not be disciples? Can we be disciples and not be like the disciples? Levi had to leave behind his tradition and custom of religion, Peter his nets.
So is it only some that Christ calls to "leave behind"? Or is it to those who want to be a disciple?
Roxana,
You stated: "I also think there is third way to encounter Jesus, One in which although Bonhoeffer doesn’t mention in this quote, surely experienced it …where we play no action… when Jesus calls us and encounters us throughout life through no action of our own."
I disagree that what you are explaining here is a "third" way, for that would mean that there is an alternate other than being either FOR or AGAINST Christ. The encounter that divides us and cuts straight through our very existence is however very varied and unique and cannot be duplicated between different people.
The point of Bonhoeffer is this: to truly accept Jesus Christ for who He is, is to do what Luke 9:23-24 states: it is take up our cross, our tool of death and follow Jesus to Golgotha. Who I am, the sinner who I am, must die if Christ is to be the Lord of my life; there is no alternative. If we avoid this death, if we avoid the crucifixion of the sinner who we are, then we have no place in the Kingdom of God and thereby join the crowds in crucifying Christ. Every call of Christ is a call to die, as Bonhoeffer states. To die to self, to die to the world, to die to sin. Unless the seed falls to the ground and dies there is no new life. Unless the sinner dies, there is no justification. And then it is here that Paul in Romans 6 steps in and explains how we die, how the sinner is put to death: in baptism. To be baptized into Jesus Christ is to die and be raised to new life. It is here in baptism that the reality of Christ's call takes firm subjective manifestation in our life.
Christine,
"Can we follow Jesus and not be disciples?"
We can "follow" Him and call Him "Lord, Lord" but still not be His true disciple. But to truly follow Him is to be His disciple.
"Can we be disciples and not be like the disciples? Levi had to leave behind his tradition and custom of religion, Peter his nets. So is it only some that Christ calls to "leave behind"? Or is it to those who want to be a disciple?"
The call of Christ goes out through His Word to all men it reaches. But the true mystery of this is seen in Christ's parable of the wedding banquet when He states: "For many are invited, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). The call goes out and through the mystery of God some are chosen while others hear the call and reject it. This is a mystery we must not try to delve into, but leave it in the Almighty hands of God. All who are chosen though will "leave behind" everything, in the sense that nothing in life will matter but God Himself and revealed in Jesus Christ crucified and risen. This does not mean that outwardly our circumstances will look the same as the disciples, but it simply means that the true call of Christ will divorce us from every idol and bond of this life, demanding and drawing our entire devotion. How this manifests itself outwardly is not what matters, what matters is that the call of Christ is irrevocable and is divisive through bone and spirit. To even think that we can hold onto what we were or "have" is to fail to see that the call of Christ calls us to die, to self, to sin, and to the world.
Chris, I would say that for ALL of us the call to ministry is full time, not just for some of us. I would say that we make a mistake in saying ministry is something a pastor or missionary does, but rather ministry is following the call of discipleship.
All who follow Christ are called to leave behind everything. That doesn't mean we all do the same things or have the same actions. (Peter ate unclean food, Paul submitted himself to the law for the salvation of Jews (1 Co. 9:20)) Leaving behind does not mean physical posessions (although it can)...Bonehoffer makes the point in chapter 2 that you can leave it all behind physically and still be stuck with yourself.
Mom, I also agree with Luke. There is no thrid way. The third way you stated is infact the only way in which we may enter relationship with Christ. It is by nothing we do or deserve that we receive this call. It is out of Christ meeting us "through no action of our own" where we are (like in all the examples you gave). But once we have this invitation to enter this life of grace...at that point, there are but two decisions to make. A decision to join him on the cross or a decision to crucify him with our disobedience and sin.
That is what it comes down to. I do not see a third way. Grace is more then a concept of how we can get into heaven once our physical bodies die...grace is a redemption that redeems us from living disobedient lives right now, on this earth.
hey denae wats up check my blog out redsoxplayoffs2007.blogspot.com
Post a Comment
<< Home