discussion on Costly Grace...
I want to wait to post about the second chapter until those of you who want to participate have some time to comment. I don’t want to jump a head and leave everyone behind!!
My dad made some great comments. I would like to touch on one of them. (click here to read his thoughts first)
Professional Ministry?
Someone who is walking in the flesh and thinking through the flesh, looks at their pastor and thinks, “I’m so glad he is hired, so I don’t have to do that!” That thinking is evil. It is a thought birthed out of our sin-nature. (Romans 8)
Someone who is walking in the Spirit and thinking through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, looks at their pastor and thinks, “I am so thankful to be a part of this body…what is my role in serving in God’s kingdom? Why has God placed me in this community? What can I offer and give to help partner with my brother to see God’s kingdom advance?”
When Christians think the second way and not the first, the problem is not that we have professional pastors; the problem is that we don’t have Christ-followers. The problem does not lay in the existence of pastors, churches, politicians, society, or culture. The problem is in the lack of ownership that I, that we, have taken of God’s gift of grace. This costly, priceless gift should birth within us a desire to throw our lives into the race that God has set before us, not pass the gauntlet to someone else. God forgive us for ever thinking his call to be a disciple and make disciples does not rest on us because we do not get paid to do it. (And, summing up some of my dad’s thoughts, how can there be a “higher calling” then that which Christ has called us to already?)
Romans 8: 12-19
“So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father! The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God”
posted by thankful4adoption.blogspot.com @ 7:02 PM
13 comments
13 Comments:
The problem is not that we have "professional pastors" any more than the problem of the Lutherans in Bonnhoeffer's day was that there were monks living in monestaries. The problem is the attitude of holiness by association. It's the idea that the church body can delegate it's responsibility for ministry and for living a holy life to its ministers.
A Pastor is not called to "do ministry". His calling is "for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry". He is also not called to a higher standard of holiness than we are. We are all called to be like Christ; to have the same mind as Christ. Phil 2
yes, i agree. "doing ministry" is just the "normal Christian life" (I highly recommend that book, by Watchman Lee). Too often what we look at as a "higher standard" is just the minimum standard or what it means to be a normal Christian.
I think a real issue in this "professional ministers" vs. "lay ministers" lies in the delicate balance of what we are each called to and keeping that balance in a world that bombards us at every chance. When Bonhoeffer discusses the call of Abraham he touches on this reality that so often we want to make the call something "internal" and face to see the radical effect that Christ's call can have on our outward life. When Christ calls we must be ready and willing to leave it all, outwardly and inwardly.
For the professional minister this is easier since there can be a very visible break in their life when they follow that calling. However for those who are called to Christ in another capacity we have this admonish of Paul: "Each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him" (1 Corinthians 7:17-20).
So how are we to balance this "remaining" where you are called with the radical nature of leaving everything to follow Christ? The struggle lies in remaining in this world but not being of this world, of living in this world and carrying out the responsibilities all while retaining the "as though not" of Paul that comes later in the seventh chapter of the first letter to the Corinthians: "From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away" (1 Corinthians 7:29-31).
So lay people want to know, how can I live out the radical call of Christ while still remaining in the situation in which I was called? How can I keep myself from being overwhelmed by the worries and stresses of the world which hedge in on me in every moment?
"The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature" (Luke 8:14).
Luke - very good comments. As a "lay person" for the past 30 years, this balance and focus on willingness to lay it all down has been a constant factor. I am successful by the world's standards, but what does that mean in eternal value? Nothing whatsoever. I have to maintain that focus (Gal. 2:20) and ensure that I am spending my life on things that really matter in eternity.
You are so right about the professional minister having this much more clear. Yet, they too have to face the challenge in their own unique way. What does it mean to be a successful Pastor? Does it mean a large congregation that is highly regarded in the community? When it comes to eternal values, I think not. They have to stay focused and make sure they are truely ministering and preparing people to minister in areas that really matter from an eternal perspective. So, is it really any differant?
Dennae,
Thanks for waiting for some of us to catch up. Okay, first I want to address your costly grace posting from a different paradigm.
I SO agree with you that “ any value or belief that I hold to be true that is not centered in God's word, is false. Cheap grace is just as dangerous as salvation by works”.
Bonhoeffer begins with “we are fighting today for costly grace” and makes a key point when he says … “The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing”.
I hold then, that although you are right in the sense that our church background influences our understanding of grace, it is also our lack of Godly vision and understanding of His Word that supports the continuation of cheap grace.
(Growing up in the forest, we see the trees but forget the forest).
I think about children who grow up in wealthy families; although they may have a sincere heart to give because they recognize poverty, still have no clue what it means to be in poverty; or what their family wealth provides them (security, comfort, peace), everything the wealthy child has had has been had for nothing”.
We who have been saved into God’s kingdom, at least in the States, have been saved into a church that lacks for nothing. (Though you and I know, they lack many things). The American church (and I’m sure others) really is a church who has been raised with Cheap grace. We can intellectualize why that is (to keep congregations, to pay for buildings…) but Bonhoeffer explains it well when he relates how monasticism began. So I guess what I am saying is that the church has grown up in the middle of the forest. Strangling weeds have grown right along side the trees and have killed them and spread like wild fires. Some trees learn to adapt to survive, albeit they are not the glorious trees they were meant to be. What we should take away from Bonhoeffer’s understanding of cheap grace is now that we realize it’s in the church we need to cut it down.
That monasticism became a living protest against the secularization its (the church) failure was that it allowed secularization to live. By separating itself from secularization it took on a form of pride that reinforced the idea that laity could not handle the sacrifices required of living a costly grace.
“Monasticism was represented as an individual achievement which the mass of the laity could not be expected to emulate” (p. 49).
Yet, here is what I would ask you to look from a different point of view. Bonhoeffer says we can not choose to be disciples. That being a disciple is something we are called to. I know we are called to make disciples of the whole earth. Yet Jesus called some men to be the kind of discipleship that were asked to give everything up (and I know he asks that of all of us) and others he just preached to wanting them to be born into the kingdom. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to argue that there are two walks of life like the monasticism society of the old church.
Jesus’ earnest desire would be that we all live a costly life, but we all don’t get the message clearly because we haven’t stood and cut down the monastic weed that continues to infest our churches. The poison remains in our churches today killing the life that Jesus has truly called us to.
:…have gathered like eagles round the carcass of cheap grace, and there we have drunk of the poison which has killed the life of following Christ” (p. 57).
There’s only two ways to get rid of poison, either cut it out or use an antidote. Sometimes, the antidote for a particular toxin is manufactured by injecting the toxin into an animal in small doses. Perhaps in this case, making sure disciples who understand Costly grace keep introducing the formula into the church rather than leaving it and taking a stand for the things that are right (and wrong). Making sure that we don’t get prideful and expect everyone to see it as we do or even live it (even Jesus didn’t expect them all to live that sacrificial life although that might have been what he desired). By that I mean, lets get them saved and then live a life of example as Jesus did, keep preaching what is right, keep cutting the weeds and poisons when you can. And understand that those who “get it” like Bonhoeffer and Jesus’ disciples pay a big price when they are given a vision, an understanding of the truth. How exciting to be part of that. Scary on one end and exciting in another. God help us all.
Dennae,
Okay, for my second posting I want to address professional ministry.
I think it’s comes from the pit of darkness (smile). No just kidding, but close, I think professional ministry is a calling and an honorable one …if….
As you say the person is walking in the Spirit and continually strives to let the Holy Spirit guide them. If their purpose is to teach others to depend on Christ and Christ alone. If he lives that Costly grace life and models it.
I Thess 5:12Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work.
…but…professional ministry is like a drug over the Christian body
A drug that people get addicted to, where they no longer take responsibility for themselves.
Oh God help us where we have allowed the professional ministry take our responsibility for searching and knowing the scriptures. It’s the responsibility of the professional minister to equip me to search the scriptures, guide me to know how to read them, teach me about the history, understand the Greek and Hebrew but it’s my responsibility to live a professional ministry of being a Christian servant.
Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. I Thess 5 :14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. …16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. … 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil. 23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
My saving grace is that “The one who calls me is faithful and He will do it. I Thess 5:24
Love you guys and thank you so much for getting this discussion going
Dennis, great point. In the end, I would agree it is no different between the lay person and the minister. The minister (like the monk!) is potentially in a great danger of relying on their outward "leaving it all behind", while the lay person is in great danger of failing to see the radical, life-changing, call of Jesus Christ. Both are fraught with danger.
So what does this teach us? I think it teaches us our helplessness before the living God. Whether I leave it all behind, or whether I remain content in the world there is a real danger of relying on something OTHER than God Almighty. And this is where the call of Jesus Christ incarnate, crucified, and risen leads: to a shattering of all self-reliance against the hammer of the law and a re-creation and re-birth in the vicarious work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.
If we look to the rich young ruler of the Scriptures we can see this fact. Jesus calls this man to leave his entire life behind to follow Him. Why? Because the man was attached to his life, attached to his job, attached to his family, attached to his accomplishments. Would leaving this all behind solve everything? No, because even then he might even be more firmly attached to his self, to his stubborn self will.
Jesus Christ therefore wants to simply strip us down of all these false idols and attachments so that we stand before Him as nothing but helpless and broken beggars. It is then there as unrighteous sinners, as helpless and sick wretches that the grace and comfort that He offers will be so uplifting and full of true peace.
Cheap grace - I have been reading a book about Bonhoeffer's life. It really gives a differant appreciation for the gravity of the concept in his personal life. AT the time he wrote the words, he was wrestling with a decision on what he should do regarding the Nazi's in Germany as Hitler took power. He was facing some very difficult decisions. The church didn't want to "get involved" in non-church matters. He knew that being a Christian meant he had to oppose the Nazi's. That is costly grace.
Absolutely, Dennis. I am a real "student" of Bonhoeffer's and have studied and read everything I can get my hands on. It is a profound thing to dig into his personal life and see the context and setting for the struggles that truly enfleshed his theology. What he wrote wasn't "abstract" theology from a vacuum, but he wrote in response to the concrete struggles, crosses, and trials that God brought his way. It is so profound that when he was safe in England and America that he willingly returned to Germany so that he might suffer and struggle with his family, with his people, with his church. When he could have abandoned them with no one thinking otherwise, he returned back to where he felt Christ was calling him.
I believe at many points in our life Christ calls each of us to such decisions, calls us to a point where we are faced with the big question of whether to follow the easy route or to follow Christ along the road less traveled, along the road to the cross. Whether this manifests itself in our job, our relationships, our family, or wherever, I believe no Christian is free from such moments. It is here that Christ shapes and it is here that we need Him most desperately. No one can make that choice or take that path on their own, but in Jesus Christ and His Word each of has been called to follow where He boldly leads in our life.
Roxana,
You stated this:
"So I guess what I am saying is that the church has grown up in the middle of the forest. Strangling weeds have grown right along side the trees and have killed them and spread like wild fires. Some trees learn to adapt to survive, albeit they are not the glorious trees they were meant to be. What we should take away from Bonhoeffer’s understanding of cheap grace is now that we realize it’s in the church we need to cut it down."
I guess I would be very careful with the language of "we need to cut it down." If you are talking about false doctrines, then yes, but if you are talking about weeds in the sense of Matthew 13 (as false members in the midst of the true Church) then we should avoid the idea of sifting out who we THINK are the weeds in the Church. It is certainly our duty to proclaim pure doctrine from the Scriptures, but it is never our duty to truly determine who are the "wheat" of Christ. Our own continued love and proclamation of God's Word may still reach them by God's grace. AND maybe it is we ourselves who are the weeds that need to hear God's Word anew...?
"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 'An enemy did this,' he replied. The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'" (Matthew 13:24-30)
Luke,
I absoultely agree that we should be carefult of cutting down the weeds.
No way did I mean to sugguest we should be looking at cutting down the false doctorines or behaviors of others but our own. We are the trees, we are the ones who think we are growing, we are the ones who have weeds wrapped in our own minds that our distorting God's vision for ourselves.
we are to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:12
Remember we are talking about costly grace. What do we think we are sacrficing? Do we compare it to others? Do we let ourselves be enslaved by false doctorine? No we run the race that God has set before us being careful that as we do not judge others and that we run in such a way that throws off anything that entagles us.
Jesus said
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. ...( John 12: 47-48 )So God forbid that I should judge others
Our minds are carnal and the weeds infulences us within our thinking. This reminds me of a passage in Galations 5
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery (by the weeds that are hidden)...
You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."
My prayer is that as the Lord demonstrates grace in my life I come to understand the scriputures without confusion where it says...(gal 5)
by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope... The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love...
that I should... throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let me run with perseverance the race marked out for us (heb 12:1)
Dennis,Luke
do you really think "professional" pastors "...have this much more clear?"
I don't see that at all.
I think some do and others don't. And the ones who don't are the ones who have allowed cheaply grace to flourish in the church today
Like some lay ministers, there are some professional ministers that do get it and live a radical life. Some times living a radical life is leaving everything behind. Sometimes living a radical life is staying in the positions we are called to living a radcially different way. Do you know what I mean?
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